Tuesday, December 01, 2009

ניקור according to all accepted מנהגים


Many are very concerned about the current status of ניקור in the USA. May we acept in the broad sense, the מנהגי ניקור that was being utilized in certain specific areas of Europe as the standard for everyone in the USA? There are the מנהגי ארץ ישראל which was set up by Reb Yeshuah Leib among others.

מנהגי פוילען אשכנז, ספרד וכדומה were some of the accepted minhagim for the majority of those currently residing in the USA.

May one accept or even certify a nikur that is not all encompassing of all of the accepted minhugim? NO!
The מנהגי סאטמר, ציילעם, פעסט, אונגארן were not the same as all of the other countries. When Glatt started in the USA, the only ones that ate glatt were the ones from אונגארן. Now in the USA all of the ones that use glatt are from all the other countries that had different minhagim in nikkur.

There is no justification for the purveyors of glatt & their certifiers to accept a ניקור that does not encompass all of the מנהגים. It is interesting to note that the Satmar butcher stores (who are the only ones that perhaps could have accepted that nikur), yet they do not accept the ניקור אונגארן.

Therefore the parts that are may have an issue of Nikur chelev are;
short plate,
back ribs,
breast,
chopped meat,
skirt steak,
hangers,
Tenderline,
(ox-tail).
Rib eye steak
Rib roast large end
Back ribs
Rib eye
Cholent meat
The parts that don't have a chelev issue are;
chuck eye roast,
French roast
arm pot roast,
cross rib pot roast,
blade roast,
7-bone pot roast,
flanken style ribs,
short ribs,
boneless shouldr pot,
boneless top blade steak,
Brisket,
neck,
shoulder,
shank,
arm,
chop meat/cholent meat from these cuts.
The "Shimon Mendelowitz" nikkur encompasses all of the accepted Minhagim.
Rockland Kosher aka Shoppers Haven's nikur encompasses all the minhagim.
Can any the certifiers justify utilizing minugim in Nikkur that was not accepted in the Countries that all of the consumers originate from?

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

Did you write this yourself or did you copy it from somewhere?

And is this one of the reasons why hind quarters including OU certified ox tail were assered by all the rabbonei America 70 years ago?

Yudel Shain said...

I wrote it in the short version. I wrote a longer version a while back whisc I sent to the certifiers.

Anonymous said...

R' Yudel,
this is really histrionic
these minhagim are not as shtrack in all cases.
You know that R' yakov kamentsky said that "litvishe Uder" on the deckel need not be removed and the "shin" in the forearm is not removed when left whol i.e. lamb and some small veal even though it's removedb when its whole etc....

The "Treifene finger" is a minha eretz yisroel.
this is all about the meat between the 12th and 13th rib which can and should be mitigated by skinning the back of it and removing the "treifene finger" like the OU has been advocating for a few years now and the other major issue is leaving the inside krum of the hanger and skirts which is only to save confusion.

Lmaaseh in lamb and veal ofetn its no issue since the whole area is cut anyway since its not large enough to be kedai they cut after the 11th rib...south america this is common too.


Finaly to be clear the meat between the 12th ans the 13th rib is the main issue that is the mesora of the Nirbator at ALLE from his father.
In addition mincha eretz yisroel has way less nikkur of gidei dam since they are meikel like the pri chodosh following the sefardi rov tha was in yerushalayim when the yishuv got there ....

Anonymous said...

to the best of my knowledge, shimon mendlowitz from monsey glatt is the only one in america who trebers like the chumros of everyone. please correct me if i am mistaken.

Anonymous said...

Can you post the longer version? If it's too long you can make a page not shown here that we can follow with a link.

Anonymous said...

This is like saying one can not give a hech'sher to items that do not pass 'bishul yisroel' for sefardim AND pass minhagim &/or choomres from other chasidishe &/or litvishe circles. i.e. flour from after pesach only or overnight onions or eggs (which alot of people are NOT makpid) or
wine that is not considered mevushal according to some.
Ther are many such examples. The
bottom line is: Find out what YOUR standards are (You don't have to copy your friends minhagim if they are not your minhagim), then find out what the standards of the hash'gacha is.
Today everyone is looking to see what the other guy is doing and the root to this is old time ignorance (like in "am ha'oretz").

Unsdorfer said...

http://honestlyfrum.blogspot.com/2009/11/rav-elyashiv-or-his-kanoim-got-it-right_19.html

It appears that a compromise has been reached in the Intel fiasco and Intel has agreed to hire only non Jewish workers in their plant on shabbos, a plant that has been operating on shabbos for the last 24 years. Problem solved, no chillul shabbos, all are happy. Right? WRONG! This compromise is not good enough for the head of the Eidah Hacharedus, Rav Tuvia Weiss. Not only has he sent his thugs out to protest and will continue to do so, but now, according to a report on Yeshiva World, he is trying to bring pressure to Intel in America by requesting that the Undsdorfer Rebbe use his "influence" in the United States to meet with Intel execs in California to have them close the plant totally on shabbos. He said that until a compromise of "his liking" is reached he will continue with his antics by sending his thugs out to protest. This guy cannot be serious, on so many levels. First off he is greatly mistaken if he thinks some rebbe can just walk into the world headquarters over at Intel and request a meeting to make demands, they will laugh the guy out (then people like R' Pinkey Lipschutz and others wonder why charedim are painted in the media as being out of touch with reality) . Second if Intel has in good faith come to the table and compromised a deal which acceptable, what will the Eidah demand next of Intel (and by extension any company wishing to open in Israel)? Separate work areas for men and woman? Dress codes?

But this time there is a twist to the story. The Jerusalem Post is reporting that not only has Rav Elyashiv signed onto the deal but his kanoim are even considering sending people to protest in front of Rabbi Weiss' house. This could get interesting. Who will those who have been screaming that this is about companies not being open on shabbos now support? Will they stand by their principals and continue to protest because of the precedent that this may set, as they said, or will they now listen to their Gadol Hador Rav Elyashiv and not only stop protesting Intel but protest in front of Rabbi Weiss' house? What I would give to be in Israel this shabbos (for so many reasons), I am sure that if this takes place it will be a site to be seen. Who will throw the first punch?

As a charedi friend of mine pointed out to me last night, at a time when companies around the world are divesting itself from Israel and boycotting their products, is protesting a company that employs 6500 Israelis, including charedim, really the right thing to do? At what point do they walk outside their little worlds and see how our actions effect Jews not only in Israel but around the world? What kind of a message does this send to other companies that are interested in investing and doing business in Israel? As one commenter on VIN put it :"Intel has gone as far as it can go without shutting down the plant--which is really what the chareidi[m] want. They live in mortal fear that real job opportunities will be available to their bochurim who might, chas vachalilah go out and get a parnassah. As long as there are no jobs, they can continue sending their rabbonim to JFK every motzi shabbos for a week to beg money for their kehillah who are starving and lack sufficient funds to attend next week's demonstration. It is more important to keep these jobs and expand productive opportunities in EY than it is to capitulate to these absurd shabbos demands which even Rav Elyashiv has said are no longer an issue once the workers are all goyim."

Anonymous said...

The supposed premise behind ARK (Association of "Reliable" Kashrus) was to do all the chumros in kashrus, but we all know how "well" that worked out.

Anonymous said...

So I want to do things like all shitis and all poskim and all minhoogim.
How do I put on tifilin shel yad?
sitting or standing? I guess the
new thing will be leaning.
I want to put up my mizizah according to everyone. Do I put it standing or leaning or flat?
Do I use bais yusef ksav or ari?
Do I put it up myself -mitzvah boi yoisor - or does my roov or rebbe put it up?
use your imagination to this endless mishigaas.
I want to it like everyone!

Yudel Shain said...

You missed the boat. The purveyors & their certifiers have no right to do nikur which was not mikubul by any of their customers. The consumers must adhere to the minhagim of where he came from. Therefore they must do the nikkur according to all acepted minhagim. They can write on the packages "רק לאוכלי מנהג סטמר

Boro Park said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Einfall said...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/business/media/22lawsuits.html?hp

This mehalech could be used in kashrus to expose and stop companies and hashgochos not living up to their self-proclaimed standards.

When necessary to go to beis din before launching a lawsuit, I wonder though if the batei din would agree to hear these kinds of cases.

When the companies are owned by goyim there is of course no issur to go directly to court, even if the hashgochos are hopping mad and embarrassed that they will be exposed memailah.

Anonymous said...

The vast majority of not chasidish not sefardy people have no minhagey avosainu at all, or at least don't keep them. So moot to say that people need to follow their own minhag in nikkur.

Anonymous said...

They defintly have minhagim re: nikur, but the glatt purveyors & their certifiers for monetary reasons decided to scetch the Tzibur.

Yudel Shain said...

RE: Thu Nov 19, 03:48:00 PM 2009

Lamb & small veal certain parts are uneconomical to treibor. The only thing that E/Y doesn't remove is gidei dam because the Sfardim, etc.

Reb Yaakov told a Monsey butcher to go learn the eretz yisroel nikur and he should do all of the minhagim and not raise the prices.

Anonymous said...

Which of those cuts, besides ox tail, are anyhow ossur because of the takanna from the 1930s?

Anonymous said...

nice post. thanks.