Reb משה שטרנבוך in חלק ד' דף צ' also seems very concerned about the use of machine Matzos on Pesach.
The ovens commonly used are known as "cracker-ovens". Ther are not at all like the ones that were used years ago which were relativly short ovens, and the dough was in direct contact with the hot stone or metal floor.
A cracker oven is usually some 100 feet long with a minimum of 3 stages. 1st stage is what is called "spring", because the temperature at this stage is low enough that the natural yeast does not die & the dough can rise or spring.
The 2nd stage is a high temperature of short duration, and it gives color to top & bottom. At this stage the interior is still moist.
The 3rd stage is the longest stage of a lower temperature that "dries" (not bake) the interior of the Matzoh.
The Matzos is on a wide mesh and the baking is from the heated air temperature, not from direct contact with the stone or brick oven floor.
Rav Moshe Shternbuch Shlita says that one should not use for pesach any machine matzos, as there are serious concens with the current ovens called "cracker ovens". Rav Yonasun Shteif, OB"M writes in his Sefer that there are very serious concerns with machine matzos utilizing the common machine matza OVEN.
45 comments:
There were machine matzos produced by Yonasan Steif's khal adas yereim in the 50s. I saw and ate those matzos. Can you clarify how those were different from the matzos Rav Shternbuch is saying are not OK?
Review the 2 teshuvas from rav steif in his sefer how his oven was different
My understanding is that the Streit's factory uses the old machine.
What are you talking about Reb Moshe Sternbuch gives a hechsher to machine matzos knowen as Eida Chareidis.
Many Yerushalmi Yidden are makpid to eat machine matzos.
Who should I believe the Eida Chareidis hechsher or you?
The fact is that Reb Moshe Shternbuch holds it's a serious concern.The Streit's factory uses the standard cracker oven only a very old model, It has all of the concerns.
"The fact is that Reb Moshe Shternbuch holds it's a serious concern.The Streit's factory uses the standard cracker oven only a very old model, It has all of the concerns." quote
& he still givs the Eida Chareidis Hechsher? Or you avoid answering that?
It seems like not all machines are the same & he if he is aware of the problem, & considers it a problem, he wouldn't allow his Beis Din to call it Kosher? or would he?
I think that should tell me that the Eida Chareidis doesn't have this problem, or their Rabonim don't consider it a problem.
BTW I personally come from a family where we don't [BL"N] eat machine Matzos on Pesach, I am not from Tzanzer Chasidim, therefore I don't concider them to be chometz, especially when many Tzadikim are mehader to eat machine matzos.
does that mean r chaim kanievsky (yad binyomin) is eating chometz?
I did not see Rav sternbuchs name on the Aida Matzos.
The Rabonim are unfamilliar with the concept of the cracker oven. The Cracker oven has at least 3 stages. Stage 1 is called "spring", where the temperature is low to allow the Matzo to rise/spring. The normal gluten natural yeast in flour dies at 160-175F, therefore the first stage keeps the matzos internal temperature below that. Second stage is high temperature to give it color. The third stage is the longest stage called "drying", where it dries (not bake) the interior of the matzo.
In other words you claim the OU and other places (Streits) have no heter and are machshil the olom.
I am (not) surprised that you are showing one side without asking the others. Since when do you assume that no one is familiar when they give a hechsher?
I suspect that this post is devorim betelim and a private chumrah.
Come on and be a mentsch.
It's ironic that Shonfeld and the Queens Vaad beat up on Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik when they have the same issues as Streits.
You have targetted Streits whose main hechsher has been from the Soloveitcicks for years.
No doubt, these ovens were there when Rav Aharon Soloveitchck was there. True, you have brought some rabonim who do not like the oven. But, in all honesty, we know that there is 70 ponim LaTorah. I would assume that Rav Moshe and his father can defend themselves.
It is OK to bring chiluke deos. But, what right do you have to pasel people without minimum asking for their reason.
You are going too far. All hechsherim have kulos. We all know that many poskim think all machine is posul while others think that they are better
Why do you tumul. Is this teh national inquirer?
http://www.berkshireeagle.com/ci_14644597?source=most_emailed
Besides the Meshichist aspect, how can they use a portable pizza oven that only reaches 650 degrees as opposed to matzah ovens that reach 2000 degrees.
We are addressing all of the machine matzo ovens, USA & Israel as well.
Yudel,
And, you have not heard their side at all?
In all fairness, R. Yudel only mentioned Sreiut's in reply to my (incorrect) suggestion that Streit's used the old (pre-cracker) ovens. He has not otherwise specified any brand of matzo.
My Dear Rav Yudel,
I think that it is a big responsibilty to make your claim that all machine matzos (except R. Steif's type) are teref.
With all due respect it is nothing more than a chumrah since no one abides by it.
According to you people are going to eat chas vesholom chometz this Passover.
Not impressed.
Sure I have gone through the other side & concluded that it's ossur.
It is nice to hear your opinion. I was not aware of those teshuvot.
But, it boils down to a chumrah since the whole world ignores it.
Maybe, you can explain what chometz is and how we can test the differences to determine who is right?
I respectfully disagree with the point of this post. It is clearly a daas yochid since kelal yisrael has not accepted it.
Let me add that there is a halacha that one may not eat erev pesach matzoh (many start 30 days earlier). This is do that we may enjoy the taste of the matzoh. many poskim are lenient with matzoh taht is not kosher lepesach since it is not the same taste. However, many are machmir because we are not boki in what makes chometz and since our all year round matzoh is thin it might even be kosher for passover.
The point is that no one can define or knows what makes chometz. So, how can anyone claim they have studied andknow for sure.
Let this be my last post since you have not justified anything. You ahve merely name dropped. Even teh Badatz seems to ignore Rav Sternbach who is known as a machmir,
Sure I have gone through the other side & concluded that it's ossur.
but r moshe shternbuch says l'oirer lvad baasi?
also what about npgs matzos?
Rav Moshe Shternbuch concerns are probably rooted in "Al Titosh Toras Imechu" ie keeping the traditional matzos.
If you would tell me that Rav Elyashiv or Rav Shlomo zalmen had this concern, I would be inclined to be concerned.
Besides As a matter of Strictly chometz/non chometz issue, it is well known that machine matzos are superior to hand matzos.
R' Yudel keep up your great work in exposing scandals and bringin us relevant information. But posting Daas Yichidim.... Please.
Did anyone hear the one about the alteneu elevator that was muttar than assur then muttar again?
Nothing changed.
Publish your interchange on this topic with R' Schachter. Now that would be intellectually honest.
http://lakewoodmatzoh.com/hashgacha.asp
Even these machine matzos have the problem?
I am engaged in manufacturing machine Matza that is produced in less than 30 seconds.
There are two processes. A mixer combines the Shemurah flour and water in a manner that does not warm the dough at all, i.e. very little friction and the mixer is working at a medium speed. The mixer is stopped every so often, some dough is removed and the mixer is restarted. All the dough is used within 10 minutes.
It is a soft Matza that is baked in a gas oven within 10 seconds.
It has been comprehensively tested for Chutin Nimshochim as the Matza comes from the oven whilst still warm, as per the guidelines of the MBerurah and other Acharonim.
The dough is continuously and vigorously worked in the second machine.
The finished Matza is packed in multi micron layered plastic in which it remains fresh for many weeks at ambient temperatures.
Where are those matzos made? USA, Romania, Israel,? under who's hashgocha?
If it's a soft matzo (pita?) only the sefardim with a mesorah use them.
R' Yudel, that was Rabbi Meir Rabi who gives hashgocho in Australia. He has been under attack by Australian rabbonim over his matzos. I'm not taking sides. The whole masa umatan of letters back & forth is all over the internet and was even linked on Yudelstake last year.
Meir says
Reading the tshuva. He says that an oven in the times of chazal was as hot as shiur libun and didnt take two minutes like the machine matzo oven.
This cannot be right. It is against the mishna of 3 women. Which says the baking took as long as the kneiting and what today would be called velgering but not then.
If anything everyone had their private oven, without the correct wood to burn in it and it never reached anywhere near shiur libun. Even in the olden times the main problem was getting the oven hot enough.
You are sooo 'mufkah', everyone know that rabbi shternbuchs seforim moadim uzmanim are intended to serve as interesting chumros to disscus and smile at. They are chock full of extreme chumros that no one ever thought of following they were never intended as halocho lemashe. As someone mentioned he himself gives a hechsher on such matzos.
You just get all exited when you get to tell everyone they are bad and eating treif and chometz to boost your self esteem. Calm down and be responsible.
Welcome to the Yudel Shain Club.
Here, no oneis calm and no one is responsible.
Here its: No Name
No Address
No Phone
No Time
Just lots of 'Raid' & fun.
meir adds
In yerusholaim they never allowed 'kivshonos'.
But they baked in the beis hamikdosh.
R. Yudel:
What do you know that R. Shlomo Zalman did not know? It is galuy v'yaduah that he ONLY ate machine matzos and considered hand matzos chometz.
When I discussed other technical issues With Reb Shlomo Zalman Zatzal, I was unaware that he ate machine matzos, I would have tried to enlighten him on the serious issues involved.
'I would have tried to enlighten him' (the posek hador).
This line reflects the essence of this site.
I am being moiche on your snide cynical attack on reb shloima zalman. You should be ashamed of yourself you arrogant fool.
Chap a hitch on an obscure chumra that you stumbled upon from reb shternbuch. Loser!
Enlighten him not to the halachas C"V, but to certain facts about the ovens. Rav sternbuch came out with it AFTER he was explained the operation of the ovens.
Reb Yonosan Shteif, zatzal also was unhappy with the way the newer ovens operate, see his teshuvas on the matter.
Obviously rs'z is not choshud of being ignorant of the facts regarding the matzos he ate, clearly he didn't think the chumra of rabbi shternbuch was an issue. (neither does reb nissim karelitz, r Chaim kaniyvsky, r eliyashiv and for that matter r shterenbuch himself, he gives a hechsher to them, so relax!)
HOW CAN YOU DARE CLAIM THAT REB SHLOMO ZALMAN HELD THAT HAND MATZAS ARE CHAMETZ?? THATS ABSURD!!!!
Tzemach Dovid on the GaAVaD, Rav Fisher:
Rav Fisher belonged to the "old school" of Yerushalmim, who held that matzos baked by machine were preferable to hand matzos, because there was no ch'shash of chometz developing with the flatter, more quickly baked matzos. Thus, every Shabbos Hagadol he would exhort his listeners to burn their hand matzos with the chometz and use only machine matzos!
http://www.tzemachdovid.org/gedolim/ravfisher.html
Y'yasher Koach R. Yudel for including posts that totally disagree with your halachic position. That shows a mivakesh emes. I only daven that you don't find problems with my macaroons.
The fact that R' Yudel is a mevakesh emess does not stop the corrupt hashgochos from smearing him as a liar to protect themselves.
I personally was with Horav Yisrael Yaakov Fisher z"l at a Halpern machine matzah bakery in Atarot, Yerushalayim.
He saw the so-called "cracker oven", and was quite satisfied with what he saw.
I understand that he even used these matzos for the seder, based on his teshuva in Shut Even Yisrael.
One can not physically travel through the the cracker oven to observe it's opertion, so they only see from their outside vantage point.Just like many other Rabonim & dayonim are aware of the Rama in Nikur "you can't learn the art from seforim only from an expert in the field.
Rav Sterbuch wrote a t'shuva saying that he is concerned......Rav fischer used the matzoh - a Maaseh RAV. Yet the caption reads 'any machine matzos should NOT be ....'
Then again this is Yudels site - here there are different rules.
The fact is those who frown on machine matzos will go on and on why its worse than the olden days and those who are makpid to use machine will tell u why today the matzos are better......fact check it out.
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