Invited to an affair under the supervision of a respected “Hashgocha” but which was being held in a non-kosher facility, we went into the kitchen to look around and to compare notes with the Mashgiach. We were not prepared for what we found.
More disappointing was it to learn that the “Rabbonim” who certified the affair never visited an affair under their certification which was being held in a non-kosher facility. It was recently discovered a number of such organizations where the “Rabbonim” themselves have never seen the operation which they certify, but instead rely totally on the head “Mashgiach” or on their Kashrus Administrator to make all “halachic” decisions..
This letter, basically unchanged, was mailed to all of the “Rabbonim” in the organization. As of our printing we have not received any reply.
Dear Rabbi ........ BS”D
It would be remiss if we do not report to you directly just what was observed of the procedures used at an affair supervised by your Hashgocha organization which was held in a non-kosher establishment. At a recent affair where we were invited guest, we went into the kitchen with another Rabbi. Having been shown around by the Mashgiach on duty, we had the following concerns which we hope you will address.
*
1. The non-kosher facility was allowed to leave their non-kosher utensils out in open view of the waiters and kitchen staff. By utensils, we mean ladles used to serve soup, etc. and eating utensils. Needless to say, with a little preparation these could be kept out of sight of the non-Jewish staff so as not to tempt them to use them.
The Mashgiach said, “I’ll give you $100 if you find a non-kosher utensil on the floor.” The Mashgiach himself goes onto the ballroom floor from time to time to check if utensils are mistakenly used. This means that the possibility does exist. It also means that he is not constantly in the kitchen. Then why leave the utensils out at all?!
We understand from your head Mashgiach that he had advised the Mashgiach on duty to allow the eating utensils to remain in hands reach, but covered. Instead, the Mashgiach put them 8 feet away, completely uncovered. Why should this be allowed? It is inviting trouble.
We also observed some 6-8 (non-kosher) ladles hanging in full view. It takes a worker seconds to grab one & put it into the soup. (See also #5 that no ladles were marked in any way.) This is one of the reasons why accidentally non-kosher utensils sometimes (too often) get taken back in error from an affair held at a non-kosher facility. (All too common.)
*
2. Since a) the affair was fairly large (500 plus guests), b) the Mashgiach does leave the kitchen to check the floor as well as for personal needs, and c) non-kosher equipment is in full hands-reach of the staff, I feel that such an affair requires 2 Mashgichim, not just one. (See # 6.)
3. The Mashgiach allowed the waiters to use the non-kosher (uncovered) trays for serving hot foods. This is not an accepted procedure anywhere, as far as we know. Should a hot piece of chicken fall onto the tray, would that not constitute a serious problem?
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4. Only a part of the kitchen was kashered. Quite understandable. However, it seems inappropriate to have different kosher zones spread throughout the kitchen area. Better would be to cover with paper the entire area from the ballroom side until where the kosher food is prepared, not to leave open spaces that are not kosher between where the food is cooked, prepared & served.. It is so easy for a worker to put a hot pot on the nearest space available.
5. There were places which the Mashgiach did not kasher which we feel do need kashering. Some counter spaces had raised racks over them. The underside of the raised racks were not kashered nor covered. This presents a “zeah” (vapor) problem, one which kashrus agencies do know to address. (It could also be a problem of actual food leftovers, because no-one even bothered to examine the underside of the racks. See also next paragraph.)
The Mashgiach at the affair told us that indeed this is a problem and he would make an effort to cover the bottoms of the racks in the future.
We also noted a pole in the middle of the production area which we felt should have been kashered, not just washed, and/or should have been draped with some material. The pots and pot covers do touch this pole while they are hot. Although the Mashgiach washed it, he neither kashered nor covered it.
6. None of the caterer’s ladles were marked for meat. This caterer does both meat and dairy at his commissary. We were told by your head Mashgiach that since there are so few dairy ones, only the dairy utensils are marked. Although Shulchan Urach advises marking one type of utensils, the common procedure today, wherever we observed, is to mark both dairy & meat serving utensils, especially if catering in non-kosher facilities also, & paint does wear off. We must be able to distinguish between the caterer’s kosher utensils & the facilities non-kosher utensils.
7. While we were waiting, we saw some of the staff go to another room, eat non-kosher pizza, bring the boxes into the kitchen & then resume serving, with no washing of hands between eating the non-kosher pizza & serving a glatt kosher meat dinner. The Mashgiach did not respond until the problem was pointed out to him. Then he asked one or two workers to wash. This is an additional reason why I feel that the affair needs another Mashgiach.
We hope that these issues have already been raised to the Rabbonim of your organization & that the Rabbonim consider the present methods acceptable. We would like to understand where my reasoning is faulty. It is for this reason that I am sending this letter to the Rabbonim certifying your kashrus organization.
25 comments:
did you hear the story where rabbi zusha blech gave a letter certifying a caterer in a shul except it was news to rabbi of the shul who was furious when he learned the caterer brought food to his shul kitchen with the letter to back him up? he called blech and demanded to know never mind i was never asked permission but how could you give a letter when you were never there to look around
A "better" story is the Queens Vaad catering hall serving goyish wine even after complaints to their capable mashgiach
It is rumored that R" Elya Svei held Aish Hatorah had krumma shitos. Here is what Aish recently did somewhere which is definitely krum. They had an event where people from their circles & the community at large participated in. Everyone was supposed to pitch in by bringing home cooked food. Even some of Aish's BTs would not eat anything because it was obvious that the kashrus standards of too many of the participants was suspect. Why in the world would Aish do something like that?
http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-new-york-orthodox-sex-abuse-case,0,5559513.story
The alleged molester is no longer a magid shiur in YOB but is the shatnez checker from Boro Park who during the year works from home & during the summer hangs out in Lakewood Minyan late at night. Many mishpochos send little children alone to his basement to drop off & pick up. Don't do that!
Yudi Kolko also had a job at YOB to proctor limudei chol tests, until UOJ forced him out. YOB only got rid of the shatnez checker after UOJ published allegations against Shloyma Mandel himself going all the the way back to his days in Telz.
Speaking of R' Elya, the son of one of R' Elya's talmidim from the early days is in the rabbonus. I happened to spend Shavuos in his shul and this is what happened. By the kiddush on the first day I asked the rov what brand of iceberg lettuce the salad is, Postiv, Bodek, Dole, etc. He asked why. When I explained that there are dozens of hashgochos on bagged lettuce, all with varying degrees of bug checking, he said he "never heard that before". He said he would find out from a shul official. I told him not to bother as if it requires any tircha, I am no longer interested as I don't have to eat it. He insisted and ignored my pleas to forget about it. Unfortunately, the shul official that he asked is a modern orthodox fellow with even less kashrus yedios who is a huge yenta and not a very nice guy.
Even though the brand checked out and I was able to eat it, the story didn't end there. By kiddush on the 2nd day, whatever happened the day before with the modern guy going in the kitchen incited the caterer. She came running over to me and started shouting at me very loudly & angrily. The rov had already started making kiddush for the oylam but had to stop while everyone was overcome by the caterer's outburst against me. She was confused and was yelling at me that how dare I question her sanitary standards, that of course she only uses Postiv & Bodek "because that's all the Health Dept. allows". So this crazy & angry woman had no clue I was asking for kashrus reasons and while dealing with the wrong issue she uttered an obvious lie to cover up for something that didn't need to covered up.
Wed Jun 06, 11:05:00 PM 2012
Oversight does not = krum.
Even if you were not a follower of Reb Elya ZTA'L
he would not consider an org. krum for somthing like this.
UOJ's Chair on the dais in Gan Eden just gets bigger and bigger.
I think R' Elya's beef against Aish is they were so hungry for the dollars that came with large numbers of warm bodies in Kiruv work that they were using tactics that were questionable in Halacha & hashkafa. I never asked the rosh yeshiva about this but one weird thing Aish does is to encourage adult children of intermarriages (in a 2nd marriage) to accept the intermarriage and even to live with the parents as if it's normal. Aish is so scared of losing a single product that they justify this in the name of Torah. And nothing wrong but very funny that Aish takes federal program money to counsel shvartzas to stay in their marriages. They have a rabbi sitting in an office who gets to learn most of the time as most shvartzas are not married to begin with, most of the rest never heard of the program and therefore virtually no one actually comes.
Sorry you couldn't get that job and hock even more.
why do people get so sensitive when they are asked kashrus questions? on pesach a shul candyman tried to give tzukerlach to my kids. i asked if i could read the label first. he got so baleidikked that i am questioning his zehirus in kashrus. i explained to him that on pesach i am more machmir than during the year and that its fine al kol ponim since his candies were under rav illiovits who is very reliable. he couldnt understand the concept of what i was doing and was still insulted
A concern that needs to be addressed in the case of a kosher party being done in a kosher facility, is the issue of “basar shenisalma min ha’ayin”. This problem occurs when a secular/non-Jewish driver drives to truck from the commissary to the hotel/hall where the event is to take place, without a shomer mitzvos chaperone. In such an instance, the truck must be sealed with the appropriate “choisamos”, as per Halacha. The absence of such “choisamos” could possibly jeopardize the kashrus integrity of the entire party.
Another concern is that sometimes a kosher caterer may have a “mashgiach temidi” at his commissary, where the mashgiach is actually very diligent about his work, and maintains a constant presence there. However this doesn’t guarantee that the food served at a given party "off location" actually came from the particular commissary! The caterer could actually have gotten the food from a non-kosher source, and no one would be the wiser. The public knows that the commissary is supervised, and therefore assumes that all parties done by this caterer is under supervision of the mashgiach, which is an impossibility since the mashgiach can’t be in 2 locations at the same time. [All the more so, when the caterer is doing several parties the same day].
The solution is to have the truck sealed by the mashgiach at the commissary, which in turn requires a second mashgiach at the party to receive the truck and verify the seals. Only then can we consider the kashrus supervision to be seamless...
Correction. The above should read:
...in the case of a kosher party being done in a *non-kosher* facility
why do people get so sensitive when they are asked kashrus questions?
It really gets ugly if you ask regarding a certain hashgocho with a presence in Kew Gardens.
Here's a clue: Vaads with very thin skin have something to hide
"A Mashgiach Who Cares"
From your comments its quite obvious that you never worked a off premiss party.
Work just one party, with a reliable hashgacha, and you will have no concerns at all.
with thin skin its pretty hard to hide anything. However,
with a thick head, one only knows how to make false accusations.
No false accusations except from the corrupt liars trying to cover up the facts.
It's the same yoyo from THAT hashgocho who is disputing a mashgiach who cares because he doesn't want anyone to investigate or be meharher after his caterers where they drop the ball.
When I was a bochur, we had an assignment to write a newspaper atricle, useing the W's. Who, What. Where, Why.
Reading the event above, we did not get past the first W - WHO - then I regard the whole 'story' as an invented story.
THis does nothing to advance the cause of Kashrus. The soup ladles and the story belong in the garbage.
Reb Yudel why are you afraid to write the name of the certifier?
You can rest assured they haven't changed, It has to be the KCL.
To the “mashgiach” above, for the public’s sake, I really hope that you do your job well.
I have years of experience of kashrus work in the food service industry, and I’ve done more off-premise hashgacha jobs than you imagine.
I work for reliable hashgachos, and I’m also committed to try to KEEP hashgachos reliable. This is why I take the trouble to share my insights with anyone who strives to adhere to a higher standard.
If the so-called “reliable” hashgachos are addressing my concerns, great! What about the other ones who ignore these concerns? Who will be the whistleblowers? The “oilem=goilem” has no way of knowing what went on behind the scenes in the kitchen, behind the elegant facade of the glittering party ballroom!
Nobody’s perfect, and mistakes can/do occur. However one of the ways to prevent “mistakes” (intentional/unintentional) from happening is by having a proper work protocol for mashgichim and caterers, designed along the lines of “Kashrus for Dummies”. This protocol needs to address all types of concerns, including the issues of “basar shenisalma min ha’ayin” and also closing the loopholes for potential kashrus fraud.
A case in point is the recent kashrus fiasco which occurred in Eretz Yisrael about 1-1/2 months ago, where some 175 lbs. of treife meat was allegedly served at a supposedly kosher off-premise event.
In my research of the story, I gave the mashgiach the benefit of the doubt, and assumed that he in fact was conscientious about his work. My conclusion therefore was that the root of the problem lay in the fact that in the hectic excitement of the preparations the mashgiach apparently forgot/overlooked the halachos of “basar shenisalma min ha’ayin”, which was how the secular chef was able to lip in the treife meat unchallenged.
To illustrate how bad things can potentially get in the kashrus industry, I can’t resist retelling a story which may sound apocryphal. However, I heard this story first hand, from another mashgiach, which he was personally witness to. He was at a certain event, and saw someone sprinkling coarse salt all over a (non-kosher) grill. He asked the person what was he was doing? The person responded, don’t you see that this is “Koshering Salt”!
[To the uninitiated, “Koshering Salt” is used to remove traces of the animal’s blood from kosher slaughtered meat. The process of rendering non-kosher grills for use, involves a very different process…]
There may have likely been more than one incident of someone sprinkling "kosher salt" and justifying it as bonafide kashering. The incident that I am aware of happened in St Louis about 25 years ago. It was a Vaad Ha'Ir account where the owner is a Conservative Jew.
Hemshech Sun Jun 10, 11:45:00 AM 2012
Do you want to know something else? The father of the zaltz culprit in St Louis tried and almost succeeded in getting the catering contract for a national airline. He was thwarted when Star K convinced the airline that orthodox Jews will not take his kashrus standard seriously as he was processing meat with the gegussenna method of spraying every 3 days which only one Rishon is mattir, the little known Masas Binyomin.
So far there has not been any stories involving a "RELIABLE" Hashgacha. (It does not sound like the Mashgiach is too reliable either.)
So far there has not been any stories involving a "RELIABLE" Hashgacha. (It does not sound like the Mashgiach is too reliable either.)
The caterer must have been under the Vaad Hakashrus of Goldberg AKA MOrrell
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