Wednesday, March 15, 2017

מים שלנו Issues

THE מים שלנו PARADOX
There are 2 opinions in Klal Yisroel for הלכות  which are based on the שקיעה. There are those who follow the first שקיעה (sunset). Everything before sunset is called יום  (day) everything after the sun starts setting is called בין השמשות . After a certain number of minutes (the different opinions for this are out of scope) it becomes לילה. For those who follow the second שקיעה this takes place 57.5 minutes after the first שקיעה . everything before then has a דין of יום. From 57.5 minutes till 72 minutes is בין השמשות . After 72 minutes it is לילה.

It is very easy for one to adhere to both opinions; for מצות which need to done in the timeframe of יום just make sure they are completed before the שקיעה ראשונה , for מצות which need to be done in the timeframe of לילה  just make sure to start them 72 minutes after sunset. For the הלכות of מים שלנו there is no way that one can adhere to both opinions therefore the following issues arise.  The רמ''א says that the water should be drawn סמוך לבין השמשות .  For those who adhere to the first שקיעה  this means very close to sunset. For those who adhere to the second שקיעה this means about 50 minutes after sunset.

If you follow the first שקיעה  and you are baking in a bakery which belongs to a Kehila or has a client base which follows the second   שקיעה  you have to make arrangements for the מים שלנו for your מצות to be drawn before sunset. In a situation such as this the bakery should ask you to purchase all the מצות baked on your time, since their customer base considers the מים שלנו drawn before sunset נשאבו מבעוד יום  and not סמוך לבין השמשות by virtue of a time span of almost an hour between when the water is drawn before sunset and the second שקיעה at 57.5 minutes after sunset followed by  בין השמשות, this cannot be categorized as סמוך לבין השמשות .

The issue we have is, this is not happening. The bakeries are telling you the water was drawn before sunset and they are selling the overage from your baking to their customer base. This is a major רעותא  in the נאמנות of the bakery stating that the water was drawn before sunset since this is not  the type of water their customers are expecting. The only way that the bakery can be trusted in this scenario is if the RAV HAMACHSHIR issues a letter that he permits the use of water drawn before sunset to be used for all מצות baked in the bakery. If you cannot get such a letter you can assume that the water was drawn 50 plus minutes after sunset. This would categorize the water as מים שנשאבו אחר תחילת הלילה .

Even though after the fact  the מ''ב permits this type of water in סימן תנ''ה ס''ק ד' he does write as follows וז''ל וכל שכן שלא לאחר לשאוב אחר כניסת הלילה . The issue now is if you will be baking in this type of bakery and you cannot get a letter from the RAV HAMACHSHER should you switch in order to follow the words of the Mishnah Brurah וכל שכן שלא לאחר לשאוב אחר כניסת הלילה . Also is it worth paying several dollars a pound extra for these מצות. If you have already baked under the above scenario should you return these מצות and look for other מצות.



Anonymous said...

Not so simple. Many poskim including the Chasm Sofer ,hold that even according to shitas Rabeinu Tam,night is around 52 to 54 minutes after shekia and bein hashmoshos starts around 13.5 or a little more,minutes before so up to about 38 minutes is Yom and after that for 14 minutes is bein hashmoshos and after that is tzeis.

Anonymous said...

When you bake matzos with a GOOD chabura this is not an issue at all. In all good chaburos one of the bnai chabura will go himself to get the water at or right before shkiah. You should stop knocking chaburos that have been doing this as one of the basic functions of a chabura ever since litvisha chaburos started baking in chasidesher bakeries.

Chometz Fresser said...

When it comes to Shteinmetz's matzos, especially the Spelt ones, is he on top of things like with shechita or is it farfallen like with the bugs in his vegetables & at Newday?

Anonymous said...

Even by the shechita he's not nogayiah, it's skver all the way.
he's a farfalleneh

Toshav Monsey said...

To 11:00AM
I will rephrase the issue since you have not addressed the point. I fully agree that a good Chabura will not rely on the bakery for a major component such as מים שלנו and will do it themselves. The issue here is that by most Chaburas even (GOOD Chaburas) if there is an overage or else you bake less than the time for the shift, this extra is taken for stock and the bakery puts some type of label on the Matzohs that these are special. If they are using the same water that you used for their stock, you are being excessively naive in assuming they did not switch the water for water that meets their standards. You must confront the RAV HAMCHSHIR with this issue and see what he says, ignoring it does not help. If they require you to pay for all the matzohs baked and will not use your matzos you probably do not have to worry about them switching the water.


Yudel gets results said...

Most cows for slaughter are kept and transported in severely restricted confines and their horns are cut or burnt off without any anesthetic to prevent them damaging one another in such confined areas. They are pumped with hormones and antibiotics that change their physiology and restrict their natural functioning.

One should also note that these hormones and antibiotics are retained in the flesh consumed by humans, with many negative consequences.

The situation is even worse for dairy cows. In order to induce maximal lactation which produces litres of milk for human consumption, calves are immediately taken away from their mothers (in direct contravention of the Biblical prohibition, Leviticus 22:27); and the hormones pumped into them enlarge their udders to such an extent that dairy cows are often incapable of walking.

An analysis by an American Orthodox halachic authority of the internal organs of dairy cow carcasses showed major organ distortions that would have rendered them treif, i.e. prohibited for Jewish consumption. This also has halachic ramifications regarding the milk of such treif cows.

Chickens in today’s factory farms grow three times as fast as they did fifty years ago as a result of selective breeding programs and the use of antibiotics. This leads to crippling bone disorders and spinal defects causing acute pain and difficulty in moving.

And as far as eggs are concerned – organic or otherwise – in order to guarantee maximal production, male chicks are killed after birth, thrown alive into grinders or suffocated in bags.

Why is there virtually no official rabbinic dissent let alone opposition to such practices?

Some of it is due to ignorance, but most of all these facts are uncomfortable and it is much easier to avoid or deny them. But might it not also have to do with the fact that the kosher food industry, and all the rabbinic supervision and authorization inextricably bound up with it, constitutes an enormous industry relating to the livelihoods, interests and power of myriads of people? One wonders whether it is even possible to stop the train of this enormous immoral enterprise where both legitimate and not so legitimate interests are so inextricably intertwined.

Rabbi David Rosen served as the senior rabbi of the largest Orthodox Jewish congregation in South Africa, and as Chief Rabbi of Ireland.

(son of alter Mirrer R' Koppel Rosen)