Every Bais Din must have an Appeal process in place.The one bais din that does have an appeal process is the Rabbanut in Eretz Yisroel.
The mere fact that many feel that they have gotten burned by a Bais-Din with no recourse, they opted to utilize the secular Courts. Others have opted to utilize the Rabanut's Bai Din.
So in Halachah the is a supreme court thats open to appeals?!?!?!?!
ReplyDeleteThats another new one.
And which Rebbe or Rosh HaYeshivah appoints these supreme dayanim?
And is there an appeal after the appeal??
How about after that??
Whats the limit for how many times one can appeal??
Can the Supreme Bais Din turn down appeals? Or do they have to accept all appeals?
Reb Yudel -- that would be compeleyly and unambiguously assur l'halachah. And that was much of the frum objection to the Rabbanut.
ReplyDeleteSome allow appeals in the rabbanut because that's an established system that the "lower courts" are part of. Rav Elyashiv didn't even allow it then. he only allowed reconsideration in matters of "taah b'dvar mishnah"
One wonders if there is a gvul to am'ha'aratzus. Seems that to Yudel's there is not.
ReplyDeleteMaybe there should be a Limit! on how much all bais din Charge ?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the Heter for bait din to charge exorbitant fees ,or anything at all?
Schar Bitalah? ?
How about 50 dollars hour for the all the dayanim together?
The ROOT of the matter.
Mostbaetei din today are a 'groisse rov' or dayan, who puts two kleineh rabbonim' (i've even seen talmidim), the groisseh rov decides, and the two kleineh talmidim say yes, and that's the psak. Now i understand the mishna that they started with the lower dayanim and went up. But today, chas veshalom a talmid should disagree with the rov. What's the purpose of three dayanim?
ReplyDeleteAnd you expect the appeals bet din to disagree? Besides adding costs, never.
At least there would be
ReplyDeletethe Shame factor!?
They will fear exposure and a bright spotlight shining on them exposing them, and on their wishy washy So called: "psak""ahem.!
They would Forced to be responsible and have Sources for the psak.?
Or end up at least just looking like shameless fools to the next dayanim!!
As long as a din torah even for a simple financial matter that will require 4-8 hours of bais din time which can be 2 hearings So at $1500 per hour(500 per Dayan) times 8 equals $12,000.00 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteAND THAT'S FOR A SMALL DIN TORAH!!! with out toanim!!
Why fake Dayan is better then Law School degree !! with instant temimim/Shoitim clientele!!
People you have no one to blame except yourselves!
If you allow this then it your own fault .
How about if someone would PARK A old smashed Jalopy in front of your house every day would you do something about it? this is much much worse.
Maybe the people who suffered and are still suffering under Shlomo zalman kaufman/flohr kolel Monsey will be able to get some relief,?
ReplyDeleteAlthough I dont think Apeals will help because of the arbitration agreement they are forced to sign that doesn't allow for any appeals
Even if appeal is made All legal or rabbinical expenses expenses incurred by the fist bais din( even the fresh new time spent by the old dayanim themselves! will be borne by you!!! And even if if you prevail to turn over the pSakQ!
So for Shlomo Zalman kaufmans Clients this cannot help them.
If enough people take Kuafman to Court it would catch up with him and the civil court will come down hard on him,
ReplyDelete"the groisseh rov decides, and the two kleineh talmidim say yes"
ReplyDeleteThat's what they call "yes men"
And if you saw the phony declaration on gerus that the OU issued last week, you would see that the panel was a few OU leaders like Dratch & Goldin with a bunch of klaineh pisher "yes men" (& "yes women") who were exactly that, even though some of them went out of their way to deny it.
The panel was supposed to deal with menuvolim (like Freundel) who take advantage of giyoressen, as well as problems with kabolas mitzvos. Except they had zero credibility because the officials on the panel are a combination of people who cover up abuse scandals and/or who agree with people like Avi Weiss to undermine halacha by not requiring kabolas mitzvos. And one woman on the panel is a Freundel victim who the OU is USING to pressure other victims to not sue the OU for covering up Fruendel's crimes to begin with!
By Machon Lihoroa forcing the baalai din to sign that the dayonim could even be toeh bidvar mishna, they are declearing that they are not paskining din torah at all. Thats the bases for R Yudel's idea. It's the only way one could hope for justice. The only way you could protect yourself is if the dayonim know that they will have to explain their psak.
ReplyDeleteYudel also should be subject to appeals.
ReplyDeleteThere was an article in Ami magazine I think maybe in 2011? about the improvements and liberation of of 'agunos' It featured an glorifying interview with the then fresh new Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Kaufman of Flohrs kollel who was featured prominently in that glossy lengthy article , as the new force in the quest to save these women . The question dealt was How chained agunos can receive better understanding from the orthodox bais din establishment,? I wonder if a copy would be available?
ReplyDeleteI think it may today be an embarrassment to those interviewed .!
But at the time it served an important purpose of establishing his credentials!!
and as a secure financial footing/income stream ... for the newly established fledgeling bais din.!
I don't know if an appeal process is the answer (there is a particularly messy din torah circulating in Lakewood where having lost a din torah the nitbah "appealed" to the av bais din who is famous for getting on his high horse having listened to only one side) There are too many Bais Dins where the "chashuv" is Chashuv in his eyes so he strts a Bais Din because no respectable bais din will let him sit. The problem is that without the ability to enforce the best are not going into dayanut. Print a column in a popular magazine call yourself the business halacha foundation, the agunah helpline and you're in business.
ReplyDeleteMay I suggest a certifying agency for batei din? Another suggestion is to have a central Bais din in each community paid by the Kehilla. If you can't shop around for a Bais Din and there is community pressure as enforcement maybe.....
I don't know if an appeal process is the answer (there is a particularly messy din torah circulating in Lakewood where having lost a din torah the nitbah "appealed" to the av bais din who is famous for getting on his high horse having listened to only one side) There are too many Bais Dins where the "chashuv" is Chashuv in his eyes so he strts a Bais Din because no respectable bais din will let him sit. The problem is that without the ability to enforce the best are not going into dayanut. Print a column in a popular magazine call yourself the business halacha foundation, the agunah helpline and you're in business.
ReplyDeleteMay I suggest a certifying agency for batei din? Another suggestion is to have a central Bais din in each community paid by the Kehilla. If you can't shop around for a Bais Din and there is community pressure as enforcement maybe.....