There has been lately many that strongly oppose the ingrained concept that "must go to Seminary in Israel" in order to marry the right Ben-Torah.
The Pros are not so self evident.
The Cons;
Don't go to Seminary, get a job or training and get married earlier.
Don't go to Seminary, get a job or training and get married earlier.
The huge expense that most can't afford.
That $20,000.00 plus [saved] can help the new young couple.
Training for a parnosah delayed by at least a year.
They don't receive the tools needed to prepare for a Torah marriage, etc.
Delaying marriage by at least a year.
A girl should be under the supervision of their parents (enough said!)
Pan-handling for a place for Shabbos, etc. at families that can't afford the basics.
We have heard of the tragic experiences in some Israel seminaries.
If we are talking about hashkofah, yahdus, etc in order to go into chinuch? Gateshead is more geared to that element.
Conclusion- It's advisable- not go to seminaries or yeshivas in Eretz Yisroel
A girl should be under the supervision of their parents (enough said!)
Pan-handling for a place for Shabbos, etc. at families that can't afford the basics.
We have heard of the tragic experiences in some Israel seminaries.
If we are talking about hashkofah, yahdus, etc in order to go into chinuch? Gateshead is more geared to that element.
Conclusion- It's advisable- not go to seminaries or yeshivas in Eretz Yisroel
Are there any pros?
ReplyDeleteNon.
Maybe for BT's
Gateshead is not free and after three years (required) its also more then 20 Grand and a much longer marriage delay. Even if one skip 12TH grade.
ReplyDeleteGateshead went through many periods where they did not take New Yorkers. If they start getting a lot of Lakewood/NY applications, they will stop accepting from these places. Gateshead may be a solution for individuals; it is not a mass option for Americans. You also need a lot more than one seminary to make up for all the businesses/seminaries in Eretz Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteThere are seminary options right here.
ReplyDeleteWhy is SEM the only option?
I didn't know there were any pros. Could you please list them.
ReplyDeleteA yungerman in Lakewood was sitting shiva for his young wife after 25 years of marriage r"l.
ReplyDeleteAt Shiva someone told him he has a very good shiduch for him. The almon asked "what seminary did she go to"?
Another Con: too many of them run by men who have no business in that field. Any wonder that a bunch turned out to be menuvolim?
ReplyDeleteSome of the "YESHEEEVAHS" in Lakewood are businesses as well.
ReplyDeleteNot to talk about in Israel - including but not limited to Mir.
And Brisk - They live on the Amerikaneh tourists/Talmeeeedim.
Comon. We need every yeshivah and seminary possible. Israel, Lakewood, (Durham) anywhere and everywhere.
You NEVER know from where the real learners, poskim and otherwise ehrlicher yiddin will come from.
I'd be scared of Gateshead today after the stupid Eunuch EUniks rolled over & surrendered to the Arab horde that stampeded into all their countries. Even with Brexit there are already loads of those beady eyed, swarthy rotzchim roaming around the British isles who are crazed and go running after every blonde haired female to grope them. There's also an encampment on the French side of the Chunnel where 100,000 Arabs are constantly still looking for any stowaway opportunity in trucks to get to England.
ReplyDeleteSchweiz is not part of the EU but the seminary there collapsed from financial crisis. There is still a girl's high school in Zurich that caters to English speakers.
Pros & Cons of "MUST go" to Yeshivahs in Israel- for boys.
ReplyDeleteNo pros.
Cons:
See above multiplied many many times.
https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/an-apparent-abuser-remains-free/
ReplyDeleteRabbi Elimelech Meisels, a former Chicagoan who owned & taught at 4 Bais Yaakov seminaries for American girls in Israel, was found guilty of sexual misconduct by the only American beit din specifically dealing with sex abuse.
In an unusually strong statement, the court in Chicago, wrote that “based on testimony & documents, the Beis Din believes students in these seminaries are at risk of harm & it does not recommend students attend these seminaries.”
What’s more, since seminaries — Peninim, Binas Bais Yaakov, Chedvas Bais Yaakov & Keser Chaya — are in Israel, a “distinguished beis din assumed responsibility for this matter.”
Why then is Meisels a free man after admitting to the Chicago religious court he's guilty of sexual misconduct? And why are the seminaries functioning as usual
Meanwhile, 2 students of Meisels who are residents of New York & New Jersey brought charges against him to Federal Court here. He's accused of rape, attempted rape & other forms of sex assault.
The Illinois case against Meisels over tuition was resolved. It alleged the rabbi “threatened his victims if they share the story he'd draw upon vast contacts in the shidduch system to ruin their reputations & ensure no viable candidate would take their hand in marriage.” It was difficult for the beit din to acquire testimonies, for this reason & others, including stringent interpretations of lashon hara
In a letter issued by the Chicago Beit Din, Meisels is said to have confessed to serious misconduct.
In response to Meisel’s statement, Rabbi Aharon Feldman, head of Ner Israel Baltimore, established an ad hoc beit din in Israel, to ensure that Meisels was removing himself & selling them. The approach was in keeping with charedi attempts to use rabbis as arbiters rather than the police.
But the result “was an embarrassment to the charedi world,” according to Rabbi Yosef Blau, longtime spiritual adviser at YU & advocate for abuse victims. He noted the women followed charedi protocol & went to rabbinic court. But since that resulted in no action against Meisels, like informing the criminal justice system, the victims took the case to civil court.
“It’s our job as a Jewish community to protect girls who were hurt,” explained a plaintiff. “He used Torah for his own corruption.”
This outright disgusting!
Delete1) The Chicago Beis Din was forced to eat crow and was forced to admit the Israeli Beis Din was correct. This article disrespects the Israeli Beis Din.
2) Why are you slandering the seminaries? They are good seminaries, as even R. Feurstw forced to admit.
3) Yosef Blau???? The guy who promotes sexual deviancy??
ReplyDeleteThe cons:
"They don't receive the tools needed to prepare for a Torah marriage, etc."
"Delaying marriage by at least a year.
A girl should be under the supervision of their parents (enough said!)"
* * * * * * * * * * *
Yes. When Sarah Schneirer founded Bais Yaacov she had aspired to make it as close as possible to the settings of the "yidd'eshe heim" within the framework of a learning institution.
"Ey'chah sir'eh, ei'chah tar'bitz ba'tzah'araiyim"..."Im lo se'idi lach ha'yafa ba'nashim, tz'ee lach b'ikvei ha'tzoi'ne..."
The one and only way to preserve our mesorah amidst a tumultuous society full of every kind of moral depravity - is to turn back to the ways of our Imahos hakedoshos -and to re-enforce the modest role of the "yiddeshe mamme";
Any "alternate" approach leads only to a dead end! The numerous techniques that modern society uses to train girlsto "get a profession and help keep their husband in learning" is essentially inverting our mesorah; and leading only to higher levelsof divorce, delequency, defection, violence, drug-addiction, and child predation among the "hareidi" youth!
I'd actually be quite surprised at the selection of a seminary a hemisphere away (in chutz la'aretz) which sits far away from home even for its own locals - in a compact community of about six square blocks- just two blocks away from a boys' yeshivah...!
I don't want to open a can of worms here, but ultimately time itself exposes all that social trend attempts to obsfucate!
So my criteria for choosing a seminar for one's daughter would be:
1. Among the alumni - how many of the students ended up getting divorced?
2. How many children per average do the alumni have per family?
3. How many of these children remain "on the derech" years afterwards?
Aside from this - all the "dinim, tanach, and hashkafah" which the school inculcates in its students is pretty much IRRELEVANT as far asI'm concerned. Because if it doesn't last then it's all a FAKE!
It would be a very good idea for proper schools and seminars - who focus on the essentials of the "yiddesheh heim" - to be started in this vein. (To some degree this issue is gradually being addressed.)
At one point I myself had insisted by and large that my own daughters learn to speak Yiddish and go to Chassidic schools as much as possible. This was all despite the fact that my Minhagim and manner of dress, are all strictly Litvish. Regarding girls there is a lot more flexibility than boys in these terms; and also - in traditional terms
- a lot more at stake!
Forget about statistics on seminary alums getting divorced.
DeleteHow about shadchanim matches getting divorced?
I know of one high level upper crust only shadchan with two divorced daughters, plus one who married an older twice divorced (non cohen) with children.
Gateshead may be for 3 years, but, it is geared for European girls who go there when they are 15 years old, instead of high school.(Not every girl goes for all three years either) One seminary can't take all the girls who want to go to seminary. Maybe more sems have to open up here in Amer. I am neither pro nor con seminary whether here or in E"Y. It depends on the girl, her family, her aspirations etc. but, I don't think parents should have to shell out all that money for sem. if they can't afford it, just because they feel pressured to do so.
ReplyDeleteThe Israeli beis din was specifically enacted as an ad hoc beis din to COVER UP the findings of the beis din kavua in Chicago because certain powerful people couldn't handle the FACTS.
ReplyDeleteThere are ra-bonim who have a long history of covering up for Beit Shemesh child molesters who were active in & behind the scenes of the cover up beis din.
The American Agudah Fressers were desperate & scurrying around for the Israeli group to undermine the Chicago beis din. The molester is mishpocho of very high ranking Fressers.
At least Blau is honest about where he stands unlike the Fressers who cover up for every deviant toyavanik who targets little boys to destroy them for life. See the halacha teshuva from Rav Wosner's beis din. And the Modern Orthos don't believe in daas Torah while the Fressers who claim it as their mantra have ignored all the gedolim since at least 1987.
Mon Aug 31, 10:35:00 AM 2020
ReplyDeleteAnother Paulie, the Apeekoires, toireh. If you see 'fresser' you automatically know its straight out western apikoorsous.
https://www.shorenewsnetwork.com/2020/08/28/lakewood-man-charged-with-sexual-assault-of-child/
ReplyDeleteOwner of Camp Kol Simcha