Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach, OB"M told me that the reason of the high rate of assimilation is because as of the kulos & heterim of de americaner Rabonim in "bihul-akum und Yayin-nesech" halachos- I asked perhaps the Heteirim are acceptable? Reb Shlomo Zalman, responded it can't be-As CHAZAL said........otherwise we wouldn't have the high rate of assimilation.
He said "if we eliminate a bishul akum in New York, it will eliminate an intermarriage in Pariz.
BTW- Many sefardi communities do not allow for any geirus (conversions).
37 comments:
I'm actually kind of curious about this. In the vast majority of cases, people eat at home and the food is prepared by a member of the family. As such, in the vast majority of cases, bishul akum is not a problem.
The next case where it might be an issue is when people eat out in a restaurant. But even there, people don't see the cook... you're more likely to have assimilation/intermarriage problems with the waitstaff than with the cook.
So, I'm wondering how R. Aurbach can attribute the high assimilation rate to Bishul Akum??
The Wolf
First let's not argue with the facts.
In food service, in manufacturing plant, in the mOISDOS KITCHENS, nursing homesm shiksa in the frum homes, etc. Bishul-Akum is the norm.
wake up & smell the coffee.
But even in those cases, how often does the consumer come into contact with the cook? In how many nursing homes do the residents get to meet the cook (and in how many of those cases does it lead to marriage between a resident and the cook?!)
The same thing applies all the more so in a manufacturing plant. I have no idea who is cooking the food - and I will certainly never meet them in the context of being the cook of my food.
If the point of bishul akum is to prevent intermarriage (something I agree with), then please tell me how it applies in these situations.
Or, to put it a different way -- I think there are other causes for intermarriage and assimilation that rank MUCH higher than bishul akum does in today's society.
The Wolf
mr brooklyn wolf,
it has nothing to do with seeing. it has to do with being bishul akum.
SORRY, YOU MISSED IT COMPLETELY!
If you are lenient in Bishul-Akum in New Jersey, that will cause intermarriage in Paris.. FAR'SHTEIST????
You're missing the point, S.
I wasn't looking for a heter for bishul akum. I wasn't saying that the halachos of bishul akum should be tossed aside.
What I'm arguing about is the idea that heterim in bishul akum are the cause of assimilation and intermarriage in today's day and age.
In the olden days, bishul akum very well could have led there because most people would have had personal interaction with the cook. In today's day and age, however, that's not the case. As such, I don't see how you can say that laxity in bishul akum is the primary cause of assimilation and intermarriage.
Again, I'm not saying to toss the halachos, but, much like the second day of Yom Tov, the reasons for it are not as applicable as they were in yesterday's world.
The Wolf
FAR'SHTEIST????
Apparently not. Can you please explain to me how this happens?
The Wolf
Timtum Halev is certainly something that shouldn't be taken lightly. After decades of eating OU endorsed cholov treife, insects and Rubashkin products, is there any wonder that we have all these assimilation issues? After decades of enabling and protecting child molesters, is there any wonder why we have so many "kids at risk"? Instead they blame it all on Lipa!
"Many sefardi communities do not allow for any geirus (conversions)."
This is not an accurate statement and I think you should better explain it so people don't get the wrong idea that there is something the matter with gerei tzedek.
Which kehilla besides the Syrians do not allow ANY gerus?
The reason why the Syrian rabbonim do not allow any gerus is because many in their oylam are not overly shomer Torah umitzvos and are prone to look for shiksas davka because of taavah. Because freye Sefardim are much more traditional than freye Ashkenazim, they know how to manipulate the system and get the shiksa to put on an act for the beis din.
This is grada pathetic, but both freye Jews and Muslims from Arab countries have a bigger obsession than most for blond women. Many Sefardim are still pursuing (davka blond) Ashkenazi women and are mevater on various maalos just to get the hair color. The Wall Street Journal even wrote about a study that Arabs that live in Northern Europe forcibly take it if they can't have their way and are singlehandedly responsible for over 80% of cases where someone was meaness a woman. This is one reason why some of these countries have been stripping Arabs of citizenship and deporting them.
This is a big problem in Eretz Yisroel too. There are all kinds of foreign workers at hotels, restaurants, etc, that are intermarrying with Yidden rachmona litzlon. And if not the foreigners, the Arabs try to poison the food or otherwise kill everyone.
CHAZAL say that that is the cause of intermarriage-PERIOD-FACT of life, wether you agree or understand it is really irelevant.
Relativity & gravity are facts wether one understands it or not.
It has nothing to do with marying the cook-it has a negative effect on Klal-Yisroel, called intermarriage.
CHAZAL say that that is the cause of intermarriage-PERIOD-FACT of life, wether you agree or understand it is really irelevant.
Relativity & gravity are facts wether one understands it or not.
That's right... but that's because it's based on testable evidence. What is the evidence that bishul akum violations in New Jersey cause intermarriage on a large scale in any other place?
The Wolf
There is an issur signed by Agudas Harabonim and many others not to kosher certify one that deals with kosher & non-kosher. Also not to certify a non-Jewish meat purveyor...That fact remains even if someone writes a HETER.
If they want to say 150 reasons why a sheretz is not Tomei,it still remains Tomei.
There is an issur signed by Agudas Harabonim and many others not to kosher certify one that deals with kosher & non-kosher. Also not to certify a non-Jewish meat purveyor...That fact remains even if someone writes a HETER.
If they want to say 150 reasons why a sheretz is not Tomei,it still remains Tomei.
That may be true or not... but it's a separate issue from bishul akum.
The Wolf
Speaking of bishul akum, I forgot to mention OU certified Le Marais restaurant.
BrooklynWolf said...
CHAZAL say that that is the cause of intermarriage-PERIOD-FACT of life, wether you agree or understand it is really irelevant.
Relativity & gravity are facts wether one understands it or not.
That's right... but that's because it's based on testable evidence. What is the evidence that bishul akum violations in New Jersey cause intermarriage on a large scale in any other place?
The Wolf
Fri Feb 27, 02:32:00 PM 2009
Rav Avigdor Miller, OB"M said once to a talmid that used to ask these type of questions.."Apikoros, you believe CHAZAL all the way, it's not pick & choose".
Rav Avigdor Miller, OB"M said once to a talmid that used to ask these type of questions.."Apikoros, you believe CHAZAL all the way, it's not pick & choose".
Nice, feel free to call me an apikorus for daring to ask a question if you feel you must, but my question is still valid and asked.
What testable evidence is there that someone violating bishul akum in New Jersey causes a rise in assimilation anywhere in Europe?
The Wolf
look what that fechstein is up to now!!! http://frumreport.com/ he's busy trashing matzav.com. BTW for those who don't know The Yeshivaworld.com is run by Yehuda Eckstein which also runs Frum Report.com to trash his competitors. nebach what a lowlife
In Lakewood there will not be this year "Mishloach-MANNES".
In Lakewood there will not be this year "Mishloach-MANNES".
Rav Avigdor Miller, OB"M said once to a talmid that used to ask these type of questions.."Apikoros, you believe CHAZAL all the way, it's not pick & choose"
Calling someone an Apikores is the answer that one gives when they don't have an answer.
I don't need an answer, because I don't ask those questions-Chazal statements which is refered to as MESORAH is what guides klal-yisroel.Sorry. BTW I only said what what I heard from Reb A. Miller when a bochur was asking these type of questions, I was not responding to your question specifically-I don't answer that style question, Rav Avigdor Miller did....
Chazal didn't say by eating Bishul Akum you will cause others to intermarry. Chazal said that because people eating and cooking for each other will become friendly, you can't eat food that a non-Jew cooked because of the threat of intermarriage.
If you live in Paris, then yes, the threat of intermarriage in Paris will go up.
i'm asking out of ignorance, not likanter: Where do chazal say that bishul akkum causes intermarriage because of timtum halev and not just because it will lead to becoming closer to them?
http://www.goldenwestglatt.com/oucertification.asp
Who said anything about "timtum"?
Reb Shlomo zalman said that preventing Bishul-akum & yain....in NY will prevent intermarriage in Pariz.
new OU meat? see video & be convinced
http://www.goldenwestglatt.com/testimonials.asp
Just as a side point of curiosity... why do you spell the name of the city as "Pariz" rather than "Paris?"
The Wolf
BTW I only said what what I heard from Reb A. Miller when a bochur was asking these type of questions, I was not responding to your question specifically-I don't answer that style question, Rav Avigdor Miller did....
And, with all due respect to R. Miller, zt"l, it's a lousy answer.
It's one thing if the question is asked in a mocking manner -- then perhaps there may be cause to answer harshly since the question is not sincere.
My question, OTOH, was sincere and deserves an answer.
The Wolf
Reb shlomo Zalman, OB"M said "pariz".
I was priviledged to be a talmid of Reb Avigdur Miller, OB"M-If study his writings, you'll have your answers as clear as a sunny day.
Reb shlomo Zalman, OB"M said "pariz".
I wasn't referring to your original quote when you were quoting R. Shlomo Zalman, I was referring to your comment at 2:18 Eastern Time. Why do you call it "Pariz" there?
The Wolf
there is no reason to believe this article with out having in a written manuscrpt . anyone can quote something and twist it to thier own agenda
"anyone can quote something and twist it to thier own agenda"
Yeah, the hashgochos do it all the time to twist the poskim out of context - even when the poskim are written black on white.
One of the gedolim in Lita used this same concept to explain that when a bochur learns well in Slabodka he helps a baal habos in London stay a shomer Shabbos Yid and a freye Yid in "Pariz" marry a Jewish woman instead of a shiksa.
Rabbi Vozner from Shevet Halevi, emes Lane in Monsey does convert any hispanic for $3000.00
Rabbi Wosner Jr in Monsey also took tens of thousands of dollars to approve the Flatbush eruv. His own father came out against him for that.
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