Therefore the incidence of טריפות is higher than presented and it still remains a serious issue. We have personally inspected many farms, small ones of under 100 cows to large ones up to 6000 head of cows
.
We personally spoke Reb Moshe Feinstein re: his Teshuva on Cholov Stam. We personally spoke to Rav Eliyashev and Rav Wosner re: the Veterinary procedures done to the cows which make them a Treifah.
In conclusion, The intention of the Sefer may have been very good, but the sad facts are that all cholov Stam, Akum, etc may actually have serious issues of Treifos that are not Botul, considerably more than the 1.6 %. It's ranges from 4% and above depending on the farm.
One can only consume the Cholov Yisroel with reliable Hashgochas according to the Psakim of Reb Moshe Feinstein, Rav Sholom Eliyashev, Rav Shmuel Wosner, etc. They disagree with the conclusions on the חלב טריפה book.
-יש לנו ה"מסורה" מהרב אלישב והרב וואזנר, ורק זה הקובעה ההלכה.
נ.ב. והלל ושמאי היה להם ראיות חזקות, אבל חכמים קיבלו רק "המסורה" מהשני גרדיים משער האשפה
משנה ג
הִלֵּל אוֹמֵר: מְלא הִין מַיִם שְׁאוּבִין פּוֹסְלִין אֶת הַמִּקְוֶה;
אֶלָּא שֶׁאָדָם חַיָּב לוֹמַר בִּלְשׁוֹן רַבּוֹ.
וְשַׁמַּאי אוֹמֵר: תִּשְׁעָה קַבִּין.
וַחֲכָמִים אוֹמְרִים: לא כְּדִבְרֵי זֶה וְלא כְּדִבְרֵי זֶה,
אֶלָּא עַד שֶׁבָּאוּ שְׁנֵי גַרְדִּיִּים מִשַּׁעַר הָאַשְׁפּוֹת שֶׁבִּירוּשָׁלַיִם,
וְהֵעִידוּ מִשּׁוּם שְׁמַעְיָה וְאַבְטַלְיוֹן:
שְׁלשֶׁת לֻגִּין מַיִם שְׁאוּבִין פּוֹסְלִין אֶת הַמִּקְוֶה,
וְקִיְּמוּ חֲכָמִים אֶת דִּבְרֵיהֶם.
ברטנורא משנה ג
גרדיים. אורגים.
משער האשפות. הזכיר התנא שם אומנתן ושם שכונתן, לומר לך שלא ימנע אדם עצמו מבית המדרש. שאין לך אומנות פחותה מן הגרדי, שאין מעמידים הימנו לא מלך ולא כהן גדול, ואין שער בירושלים פחותה משער האשפות, והכריעו בעדותן לכל חכמי ישראל.
משנה ד
וְלָמָּה מַזְכִּירִין אֶת דִּבְרֵי שַׁמַּאי וְהִלֵּל לְבַטָּלָה?
לְלַמֵּד לַדּוֹרוֹת הַבָּאִים, שֶׁלֹּא יְהֵא אָדָם עוֹמֵד עַל דְּבָרָיו,
שֶׁהֲרֵי אֲבוֹת הָעוֹלָם לא עָמְדוּ עַל דִּבְרֵיהֶם.
ברטנורא משנה ד
שלא יהא אדם עומד על דבריו. שלא יהא סרבן לעמוד קיים בסברתו.
אבות העולם. הלל ושמאי.
110 comments:
Thank you for the final word on this issue.
Here's a link to the Sefer
https://www.chalavtreifah.com/
What a misleading post
What about the farms in the Northeast that don't do surgical intervention but rather use the roll and tuck method?
Im so glad you offer more support than the author. It's great to know that you spoke with *a number* of farms and concluded that the author is wrong. With the evidence presented in this article you really convinced me.
ר"ל רוצים לטהר השרץ בק"נ טעמים
ריב שיין, תעמוד חזק, אין להם שום מסורה,לא היה להם שום שימוש מפוסקים הזקנים של דור הקודם
Why should I trust you rather than the author of the “book”?
The author actually details why Hagoan HaRav Yudel's ACTUAL VISITS ARE OF NO RELEVANCE IN HALACHAH.
Check out the sefer guys, there's a link to the Podcast on it where the author discusses why it's פשוט מאוד that there is no Shayla.
(Hey Yudel---what about the amazing haskamos this dude got? Are they all wrong? Is Rav Dovid Feinstien z"l wrong?)
PODCAST LINK BELOW:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1218638/9816662-with-r-manes-blumenfrucht-discussing-the-kosher-milk-controversy-of-america-and-his-new-sefer-chalav-treifah
https://www.jewishmediaresources.com/2155/the-moment-has-arrived
Wow! How did the author manage to fool so many Rabbis and the Feinstein mishpacha?
All of those that gave Haskomas are not aware of the cold facts and have not discussed the vfacts with Reb Moshe, Rav Eliyashev, Rav Wosner, Etc.
Yudel on the hand has personally ascertained the cold facts and discussed the shailis with Reb Moshe, Rav Eliyashev, Rav Wosner.
The Author of the Sefer wants to hasten the Moshiach through כולו חייב. I must say he's creative, he took a subject that most don't have any real knowledge about, including the Rabbinical approbations. Knowing full well that Americans are hungry for Heteirim.
Perhaps, the author was trying to justify his own consuming of cholov akum / treif as you call it? Many try to justify themselves in various ways.
Ken zein the mechaber desperately wants a job at the OU & this is his way of trying to get Genack's attention.
Is one of his haskommos from cholov treifa champion Avraham Gordimer?
What a misleading Sefer
Rabbi Belsky, Rabbi Heineman and Rabbi Fuerst all knew the present facts and permitted and they all gave different reasons so perhaps the point is that chalav stam relies on more leniencies than you thought of but it’s not tereifa
Rabbi Belsky did not know the facts, he construed his own unfounded facts in order to create a "heter" this washeard personally from Rav Eliyashev.
Re: Rav Heineman, see Rav Moshe Shternbuch's lette.
Re: Rav Fuerst, what facts does he know. Did any of them talk to Rav Eliashev about the facts and the Halacha? We did, and he concluded that it's "vadai-treif", Rav Wosner also told that to Yehuda Shain
Re: Rabbi Avrohom Gordimer, he must protect his job at the OU.
Reb Yudel, do you think Rav Dovid Feinstien doesn't know his fathers opinion?
Dumb question please enighten me.
Wasn't Rav Moshe niftar in 1986? I think the Shayla arose in 1993-1994. Is Yudel making Rav Moshe a messiah (Chabad?)
The American Rabbonim (Rabbi Fuerst, Rabbi Dovid Feinstien, Rabbi Heineman, Rabbi Belsky, Rabbi Reuvein Feinstien) DON'T know the facts in America.
But Rav Elyashiv and Rav Wosner (from Eretz Yisroel) knew all the details.
HAHAHAHAHA
Reb Moshe has a teshuva re" one of the procedures "bloating".
Reb Dovid did not know Reb Moshe's position re: Cholov Stam. Reb Moshe said a number of times he does not correct any one unless they ask, and he said that includes his family and pertaining to his yeshiva as well.
The BMG Kitchen mashgiach asked Reb Moshe a Shailah about using a certain supplier for fish, and Reb Moshe assered it. Reb Mosh was asked, in MTJ they use the same supplier with the same issues. Reb Moshe said He has a responsible person that takes care of the MTJ kitchen, and I am surprised that they never asked me re: anything in the kitchen, but as I said I don't correct unless I'm asked.
"Wonderful"! Blumenfrucht's 2 ikker haskomos are from Fuerst who was in the mamzer kashering racket before Philly joined the club and the Staten Island rosh yeshiva, who while he didn't pull any funny stuff on behalf of Elly Kleinman (after a tummel erupted against him), there is an IRS paper trail that he took $3 million shoichad from Tropper to go against his own father R' Moshe's psak to kasher fake gerim.
If I had to choose between Rav Dovid and Rav Yudel's knowledge of Rav Moshe Feinstein's position, I definitely would go with Rav Yudel
How could anyone in his right mind defend Belsky's position, the completely illogical stance that the cow itself is takke treif, but not the milk that comes out of it???!!!
Otherwise, Rav Elyashev didn't just dismiss Belsky out of hand on cholov treifa, he said Belsky is not a bar samcha on ANYTHING in kashrus, gittin & kiddushin.
Even OU apologist Yair Hoffman admits he was in the room when someone asked Rav Elyashev about a Belsky shutef in sidur gittin, which the gadol hador immediately replied he is nifsal. Hoffman has added that Rav Elyashev also gave "major petch" to Belsky over his kashrus positions bichlal.
Rav Elyashev would have also posseled Belsky in all mammonos if the facts were brought to him about his collaboration with Mendel Epstein in financial shakedowns through their senile puppet Kurzrock at Iggud Haganovim.
At one point there were 2 Fishelis brothers in the Feinstein mishpocho, separately giving hashgochos on Manhattan restaurants. One of them was a total disaster who even had his teudah on unsupervised goyish owners who provided treif.
Rabbonim complained to R' Dovid that he must be stopped. There was no visible indication that R' Dovid did anything.
R' Dovid was also asked to be publicly moyche against Margulies & Kolko and stop the Agudah from protecting them. He did not even though Kolko molested a Feinstein relative.
And YU rabbis once interviewed R' Dovid on camera, asking his comment on Moses Tendler going against the shver R' Moshe on definition of death l'halacha. R' Dovid danced around the question without answering.
Lets clarify:
Reb Moishe knew (at least after being told) that in his Yeshivah (or in any place in the world) they eat TRIEF and didnt say anything because he was not asked. His Shulchan Arush had nothing to say about Lifnay iver and/or l'afrushay Ma'issura.
You may as well say that he also ate in the Yeshiva without asking. Impling that Reb Moishe ate Treif Chas Vesholom.
Rav Eliyashev, Rav Wosner, etc met with the vets, farmers, Tnuva coop, Straus, etc. to know what's going on , what are the facts...
Those mentioned above did not go through any of the facts on the ground just arm chair generals, Farshteist, mama lushen?
Reb Yudel shlit"a, this blumenfrucht seems ehrlich, maybe have a conversation with him?
Yudel-----What about Rav Shlomo Miller? He famously holds there is no Treifah issue on Chalav Stam, and has told all that ask him this. Is he also misinformed?
You keep quoting Rav Eliyashiv Rav Elyashiv Rav Elyashiv, but Rav Elyashiv said that Rav Dovid Feinstien was Mara De'asra of America, and Rav Dovid said the milk is fine?
Fishelis/margolis/ kolko/Tendler all in one breath. Guess we know what type and what kind we are dealing here…..
Reb Dovid did not know the cold facts, he didn't know that Reb Moshe held that cholov stam (akum) is only muttar for people that can't get cholov Yisroel once in six months.
And A Yirai Shomayim should only drink cholov yisroel even when not available even once in six months.
It's pretty klohr the Cholv-Treifah book was written only for those that aren't yirai shomaiyim, as Reb Moshe writes in the teshuva.
Reb Moshe does have a written teshuva that these procedures make the cow a Treifah.
Reb Shlomo Miller, never ascertained the true facts re: the Treif causing procedures, nor the percentages, etc.
Rav Dovid didn't know what Rav Moshe held? Hhhhmmmmmmmm........
Did Rav Elyashiv tell you that about Rav Shlomo Miller, or is that a guess by this person?
Reb Yudel, do you know what Rav Ahron Kotler's opinion on the Treifos, as he served Chalav Stam in BMG (1940-1950)?
When R' Sholom Kamenetsky et al were mattir an aishes ish to marry without a get. They then went to Reb Dovid, and he said it was Ossur.
Reb Dovid did not tell them that they must get them to divorce, they never told the couple to divorce.
Rabbi Greenblat, A Talmid of Reb Moshe was the mesader kidushin for the Aishes ish, he never told them either that they must divorce after Reb Dovid's Psak that she is an Aishes Ish.
Ah, so Rav Dovid's Psak is IRONCLAD with the Eishes Ish, but in regards to Chalav Stam it is worthless.....
Reb Ahron Changed to Cholov Yisroel in BMG, when it became available.
I think winter zman is less than 6 months (excluding leap year)-----why didn't Rav Ahron just refuse to serve milk, if Rav Moshe was ONLY matir once in 6 months?
It's well known that, Reb Moshe had a policy of not telling anyone even family members and MTL yeshiva when he knew that the were doing something not correct "unless they asked him".
Reb Yudels research is that better than ninety percent of cows shechted in the USA are found to be a Treifah, so how can we drink any milk?
Reb Yudel discussed that issue with Rav Shmuel Wosner about twenty years ago, why it was muttar to drink milk from those cows provided the the Treifahs were not of the Bloating or DA's.
Reb Yudel, your word means the most to me than these קלים.
Please tell me, do you think there are *any* farms in America without a Treifos issue?
Goat farms do not have the issues.
I was at a miller's Amish farm in PA, he had 26 cows, none of the issues were found.Alert, there are 2 Millers, the larger one has other issues e.g. camel milk, etc.
So there are farms without issues at all?
Oh I get it. Any gadol who says like you know the facts and anyone that argues doesn’t know the facts. You may not like Rabbis Belsky, Feinstien, Fuerst, Miller, Heineman but you can’t say they don’t the facts. It makes you sound dumb saying that you know what people don’t know. It doesn’t even make sense to say that and besides I spoke to many of the above list and they knew every detail of the procedure
The farms that supply milk in the commercial market, all have these issues, in General four percent to eight percent.
Someone who knows the emess but speaks sheker & acts unbecoming due to his non-Torah agenda is not a gadol. He is a zoken mamrei.
Belsky is in a parsha bifnei atzmoi on top of this with his wild temper and shutfus in the Mendel Epstein mafia stuff, which is why an alter Torah Vodaasnik calls him "Street Corner Crazy".
So we have this 'big expert' here who "spoke" to Belsky but sounds like a media person who chanfehs Biden without asking a single substantive question. Major talmidei chochomim have gotten headaches from Belsky arguing with them for hours while the whole time he insisted the impossible, that a treif cow can produce "kosher" milch.
I think that the point of the מחבר חלב טריפה is that the milk can be kosher *even* if they are Treifah. I think the bloggers here missed the point
Yudel is quiet on this. I think he was owned
Who is this blumenfrucht he goes against all the poskim et al.
Including the pri megadim who states the the real # is 4%
The noda biyehuda held that south of the mason dixen line the # is at least 3.8%
Tuck and roll is traife according to the chazon ish Rav Chaim oizer and Rav mordche betzalel Klein
What does Rav Wosnersay?
How about Rav shternbuch or Rav Elyashev?
Pick and choose you poskim as usual.
The OU mashgiach in Queens sure picked his "poskim".
Genack, Joel Schonfeld, Chaim Schwartz, Dr. Richard Weiss, Elchonon Zohna vs ALL the gedolei Eretz Yisroel.
And to think how the mashgiach is the same shvantz who every time someone cites a real gadol, he gripes to discredit the gadol, that the gadol is "not recognized" (!)
Wed Jan 19, 11:39:00 AM 2022
Can ANYONE explain vos zogt ehr oder voo vill ehr???
Yes, Yudel quotes a Pri Chadash who says incidence in Pennsylvania is ALWAYS above 3%.
Nuch a muhl zet men the old shtick of the OU mashgiach of Kew Gardens when he's cornered by his own shameful behavior & warped hashkofos being put on display. He suddenly pretends he has no idea what his critics are talking about.
CCRC talking about hashkofos. A stitch minyan ubay.
Reb Yudel, please take this post I will write seriously.
We are losing the war. This blumenfrucht who wrote the sefer went on a podcast, and thousands of people heard why he thinks its muttar. I have confirmed sources that significant rabbinim have changed their psak (lekula) based on the sefer.
This blog you posted is all the way down on the page, people don't know. We need to fight this to the end. Galvanize the Rabbonim, blog till you are out of words to write etc. This is slipping out of our hands, and we have to fight it till the end!
!חזק חזק ונתחזק
Can't win against the OU ( Yudel's Favorite for Pesach Hashgachas- For good reason) and The OK (not Yudels favorite).
Blogging won't help. The author of the Sefer didn't prove himself by blogging.
Do what he did. Make a comprehensive Sefer. Written in an understanding way. Not some random provocative words on a blog.
See what works and do that. Don't just scream at everyone that I know better. Do it maturely
100 percent correct
No body has to rely on what he spoke, the other spoke personally etc.
You rely on the printed sefer and seforim. If the Godol did not print a teshuvah or something,
one can assume that the personal shmooze a private person had is not necessarily applicable to others.
Reb Moshe Rav Eiyashev, etc. say there is no reason to write a Teshuva for something that is a Balacha in Shulchan Oruch.
Second, Reb Moshe always said that one should not rely on any of his published Responsa, unless one is familiar with every fact pertaining to the issue in the Shailah, otherwise one can't rely on it.
And if it's someone just saying things in his name that you could rely on???
Or because R' Moshe was agonized that the menuvol einikel was the (editor &) publisher of the teshuvos.
Yudel. You didn't update the post in awhile. please add some new stats proving this is טמא
There is a recent update on the bottom of the article.
https://www.change.org/p/miguel-martinez-saenz-expel-christina-marie-darling-from-st-francis-college-after-anti-semitic-attack
this attacker of little kids lives East 37th, P & Quentin
you only wrote השקפה. no halachic reasons. tell us more about your findings on farms, and how *all* of them only do surgery (no selling or rolling)
That's not Hashkafah, that's Halacha.
Mesorah is the Halacha.
You must be a Ba'susie type of Heretic. Poor you.
The ones that don't believe that MESORAH is what guides klal yisroel in everything, especially Halacha, is because of "timtum-Halev" as quoted by the Rambam, Ohr Hachaim, among many others. That is the main cause of Apikurses.
Hope you haven't strayed too far yet, time to improve on the standards of kashrus in your home.
We don't mean chumros, just basics.
Interesting that many of my comments don't get posted.
Hmm. Sounds like chipus haemes is nisht de zach da. Only to write against whoever fits the agenda. Aha.
Maybe that's why people don't Val it seriously. They see through it.
Wed Jan 26, 10:01:00 AM 2022
This site is EXTREMLY MAKPID ON LOSHON HORA. So just omit the Loshon Horah parts and they will get posted ASAP.
Blatant Shekker is also not posted.
Non-believers in Torah Mi'Sinai, is also not posted.
Wow that was a good one!
Yashar Koach for being misameach me with that joke!
A "nebech" apikores, is oich an apikores.
The truth hurts?
Deep down, you are an Atheist, but you get your kids into the local schools, so you are going along with the herd.
Wow it seems like you know everything Bigaloy Uvasaser!
So let's start with the Galuy.
Which schools did my children get in to?
Before bashmutzing people find out if your assumptions are even close to being fact.
And it seems that your comment was posted although it's Blatant Sheker. But that's not a chidush to me.
Why are we forgetting. this post isn't about yeshivas. Its about some young guy coming in and saying all the Rabbonim are wrong. That's what we should be focused on!
Our R Yechiel steinmetz, Arizona?
Oh originally I thought it's about not consuming treife milech.
But you're saying no,that's not the issue. The issue is a young person supposedly talking against Rabbanim. Ah. Sounds like a big issue here. And a very unusual one at that.
Our r Yechiel Steinmetz,Arizona?
Sounds very much like what’s been going on on this very site for years.
What goes around comes around.
Plus we all got some professional training on this inyan from the bestz
Cows chew their cud many times.
All the Rabbonim agree to this one.
why was this post updated?
Seems like the sefer is pretty popular--the ad says its the second printing
The sefer is in its second print
what is the update. its the same exact thing you posted two months ago, no additional info herE?
This blog reminds me of the Vhaarev Na program.
Chazara Chazara Chazara.
Waiting for Levine & Leiner to compose phase 2 for R' Yudel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkXuNxE8SXc
Start looking for some hefty yungerleit to hoist a DA cow up on a chair
Streits is trying to appeal to the heimishe crowd so their choice for der dritter shgooche is episs modenna - the Monsey Spiegel of Empire "fame"!
Why do you call it the Chalav Treifah "book"?
Yudel, why don't you email the author and say he is a michshol harabim?
Who is reb Yosef Sevilla?
Reb Yudel did you buy the sefer?
Why buy a treif sefer? even moshiach will only be Mattir the Chazir not treif milk.
So how did you review it if you didn't buy it?
nu?
Yudel, in the second printing he quotes you in the 19th chapter and argues with you. Do you agree with how he presented your opinion?
No need, he for sure reads this blog. Like everyone else in the world.
not sure what youre upset about, the Chalav Treifah says in the end to be machmir like Yudel?
No he is not. He says its permitted. He proves it from the facts on the ground. The sefer makes the people in kashrus look pretty darn sloppy...
There is a big difference between being Matir a Sheretz with 150 reasons to saying that the thing you're seeing is not a Sheretz!
There is a big difference between being Matir a Sheretz with 150 reasons to saying that the thing you're seeing is not a Sheretz!
The sefer choov Treif's info is so wrong that it's pathetic .
But there are so many שאינו יודע לשאול, so he could get away with it.
Please explain why it is wrong. He contacted 500 farms.
Yudel also contacted the Gov't site which represent ALL the the farmers in this country - AKA as shortcut...
What percent did the 6,000 cow farm have?
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